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With the election fast-approaching, many people in the renewable energy industry are wondering how a potential shift in the current political power structure in the US might impact the push for clean energy. With that uncertainty in mind, Suzanne Leta, vice president of policy and advocacy for the Americas at Fluence, joins the show to discuss tax incentives related to the Inflation Reduction Act, with a particular focus on domestic manufacturing. Suzanne also explains how tariffs related to batteries are structured in a way that makes them surprisingly vulnerable to the whims of whoever occupies the White House. Suzanne also touches on cybersecurity and shares her insights on the impact data centers powering AI are placing on batteries and the rest of the grid … and how smart utilities and other organizations are planning to manage that increased energy demand.
More insights from Suzanne:
Powering America’s Future: Grid-Scale Energy Storage Boosts Grid Reliability, Jobs and US Manufacturing
More resources from KPMG:
Survey results: High energy expectations for renewables
More resources from EDF Renewables:
What We Do
Key highlights from Suzanne:
The buzz around domestic manufacturing – (4:01)
Other IRA incentives like the PTC, ITC and other bonus tax credits – (10:45)
The whimsical nature of Section 301 tariffs on batteries – (13:20)
The politics of the election and the energy transition in the US – (17:15)
Cybersecurity and the grid – (22:12)
Manaing the boom in energy demand from AI data centers – (26:41)
‘Hyperscale’ data centers vs. typical data centers – (27:24)
Suzanne’s bold predictions about the future of battery storage – (31:46)
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Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created using artificial intelligence. It has not been edited verbatim.)
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This episode of the Renewable Energy SmartPod is brought to you by EDF Renewables. Across North America, EDF Renewables offers grid-scale, distribution-scale and on site solar solutions that make solar energy more accessible and reliable than ever. Be part of the solar solution at EDF-RE.com. That website again is EDF-RE.com or just click on the link in today’s show notes.
This episode was also brought to you by KPMG. This year, KPMG canvassed hundreds of US executives across the renewable energy industry and found that industry momentum is being fueled by three key factors: demand, innovation and incentives. Visit kpmg.com/us to explore the detailed survey results, or just click on the link in today’s show notes
Sean McMahon
What’s up everyone? And welcome to the Renewable Energy Smart pod. I’m your host, Sean McMahon, and in a few minutes, I’m going to be joined by Suzanne Leta, the Vice President of Policy and Advocacy in the Americas at Fluence, fresh off of a busy week at re plus, Suzanne and I are going to do a deep dive on tax incentives related to the inflation Reduction Act, with a particular focus on domestic manufacturing. You see, the build out of a domestic or at least friend, shored supply chain for batteries is a key component of the energy transition in the US. So Suzanne is going to walk us through all the policies, and of course, with the election looming, the politics related to achieving that goal, Suzanne will also share her insights on the load that data centers powering AI are placing on batteries and the rest of the grid, and how smart utilities and other organizations are planning to manage that increased energy demand.
If you haven’t already had a chance, please check out our two other episodes that focus on re plus, we heard from Jessica Libby at KPMG and Ryan Pfaff from EDF Renewables. The two of them discussed all the hot topics that were buzzing around Anaheim during the show.
And of course, Climate Week has officially kicked off in New York City, so coming up later this week, we’re going to have another conversation focused on batteries, as Roger Miksad, the President and Executive Director of Battery Council International, is going to stop by to talk about the expanding role that batteries are playing in various corners of the renewable energy industry looking a little farther down the schedule.
We’ll also be hearing from Wade Gungoll at Industrial Sun and Christine Larson from Modern Energy.
So lots of great guests and lots of great conversations on tap for this podcast, but right now, let’s get things rolling with Suzanne Leta from Fluence. Suzanne, how are you doing today?
Suzanne Leta 03:02
I’m doing great. How are you?
Sean McMahon 03:05
I’m doing excellent, excellent. I understand you’ve been on the road lately. You were at re plus last week. How was that for you?
Suzanne Leta 03:11
It was awesome. I always think about it like a clean energy reunion with, you know, 45,000 friends. But it was a really good showing of Fluence. Of course, we were the highest level of sponsorship. So we had a really great booth. Ton of people coming by. I had back to back meetings all day and evening with customers, which is really important to do, and just a really good community. Of course, lots of lots of excitement in the air, continued excitement about renewable energy and battery storage deployment, both in the United States and, of course, throughout the Americas. So a very, very positive event. And then I also love attending Fight Night solar Fight Night on Tuesday night. I can’t help myself, I must dance. So it was a really good week.
Sean McMahon 03:57
Oh, that’s great. That’s awesome. It’s definitely the conference season is in full swing here. So what are some of the hot topics on everyone’s mind? You know, across the industry, not just at re plus, but you know, as we, as we push into the fall, what are, what are people thinking about?
Suzanne Leta 04:09
One of the topics that that everyone is talking about is domestic manufacturing, and what it means for our industry, and specifically what’s happening with domestic manufacturing in battery, energy storage, and that is a topic that I have been both educating broader audiences about. It’s one that I spoke about at re plus, and also that I’m talking to a lot of our customers about, as well as decision makers in Congress and with the Biden administration, we are really at an exciting time where we finally have the two core incentives that are both driving the manufacturing of battery storage and renewable energy products and the purchasing of those products from project owners. So I’ve spent a lot of time talking about the manufacturing. Tax Credit, which is 45x that passed as a part of the inflation Reduction Act, as well as the domestic content bonus credit, which is a plus up that the project owner gets. And that also is a new development that came out of the inflation Reduction Act, of course, in addition to a few other bonus credits and the extension of the investment tax credit and the production tax credit. So those are coming up quite a bit. And of course, Fluence is really in the lead in terms of what we’re doing with manufacturing in the United States. We are the only battery, energy storage product for utility scale applications that has a US manufacturing presence such that we can deliver a domestic content bonus credit qualifying product starting in early 2025 so it’s been really exciting what we’re doing. We just had our modules come off the line the week of our E plus, and then our domestic modules in Utah, and we’re having our cell manufacturing in Tennessee. We’re looking at onshoring other products and components as well. So that’s coming up quite a bit, as well as customer questions about how you do comply. The compliance process is not super straightforward, although some of the more recent guidance made it more straightforward. So really doing a lot of education on how you can comply using Fluence products and the compliance process in general.
Sean McMahon 06:23
Okay? And just for our listeners, what what percentage of the product has to be manufactured domestically in order to qualify for the credit?
Suzanne Leta 06:31
It depends on which type of tax credit you’re taking. So if you take the investment tax credit, you only have to have 40% of the hardware associated with the project that is domestically produced. How you show 40% is a bit complicated, and I can walk you through that if you’d like, but that’s the minimum domestic content percentage for the ITC, for the PTC, it’s different. For the PTC, it’s 40% this year, but then starting next year, it increases by 5% and then it increases annually by 5% until 2027 when it caps at 55% for the rest of the duration of the PTC.
Sean McMahon 07:14
Are there any battery products out there right now that are 100% produced in the US? I know there’s products that have high percentages, but, I mean, if you, if you look at all the raw materials on through to delivery, are there any products out there that are 100%
Suzanne Leta 07:29
No, um, it’s a short answer, but we, we can eventually get there, but it’s going to take a lot of Time. What the 45x manufacturing tax credit does is incent the manufacturing of the key components of the products to occur in the United States. And for battery energy storage systems, that is primarily cells, modules and inverters, it does incent all the other critical minerals you don’t have to have the critical minerals made in the United States to qualify for the domestic content bonus credit as the project owner. And that’s good, at least in the near term, because it’s hard enough getting the most expensive, most capital intensive components to be produced here in the United States. And those are the cells, the modules and the inverters. So the way the bonus credit works is that there’s a specific list of products and then a specific list of components within those products that you use through a mix of them to be able to qualify for the bonus credit. So the three products or the battery energy storage system, are the battery pack, the inverters and the housing and enclosure, and then the listed components varies, of course, depending on the product type. So for example, the list of components in the battery pack are the cells, the packaging, which is the modules, the battery management system and the thermal management system. It’s funny, that’s how it’s listed in the guidance. The thermal management system is typically not in the battery pack, so it actually should be in the enclosure. It’s something we’re working to try to fix, but that just gives you a sense of how that bonus credit works. So essentially, if you have minimum percentages of those different components within your battery pack, the minimum percentages of other components within your closure. For example, you use the combination of those components to show that you are meeting that 40% target for the ITC or the higher targets for the PTC. It does not go down to the critical minerals level. That’s good because it’s it would be even harder, basically impossible, right, to qualify if it went down to the critical minerals level, at least at this early stage. And just to give you a sense, Fluence is domestically manufactured product, which has domestic cells and modules and. Will soon have other domestically made components. Is the only product on the market that is available for delivery next year with us, cells and modules to our to our awareness so and that was very hard to do. It was a couple of years in the making, again, because the cells in the modules are so capital intensive and time intensive to make here, so eventually down the line, right? We want to have more of the critical minerals made domestically, both the things like the lithium as well as the processing, but it’s going to take some time. It’s probably several years out, at least.
Sean McMahon 10:39
All right, I understand. Thanks for walking me through that. I was pretty sure it wasn’t how sure it wasn’t 100% but I figured I’d ask, you know, you’re a policy expert, you know, what other aspects of the inflation Reduction Act are people talking about, or people in the industry asking you about?
Suzanne Leta 10:54
You know, I talked about the big two that I’m getting asked about regularly, but there are other bonus credits associated with the ITC and the PTC which are really valuable. Just for reference, the value of the domestic content bonus credit is 10% on top of of the ITC or the PTC value. So it’s quite valuable for the project owner. And what’s notable is that for this bonus credit, as well as the others, which I’ll discuss in a moment. The value of the bonus credit is based on essentially the fair market value, or the stepped up value of the project, whereas the qualification for the domestic content bonus credit is based on the percentage of just the hardware associated with the project. So that’s really meaningful, because you might have to pay a little bit more right for the hardware in order to qualify for the credit. But the credit value is based on the entire stepped up value of the whole project, inclusive of things like origination costs and development costs and permitting. So it makes sense to pay a little bit more for a qualifying domestic content product, because you get this huge value when you do qualify. And then the other bonus credits are the energy communities bonus credit and the low income bonus credit. And you can actually stack all of them. So for example, if your project is located in a qualifying energy community and you’re meeting the domestic content bonus credit requirements, you can get 20% more of the value of your tax credit because the energy community’s bonus credit is 10% and the domestic content bonus credit is 10% and you stack them. So for example, in the case of the ITC, where the baseline tax credit is 30% if you qualify for energy communities and domestic content, you get a 50% tax credit value. It’s very, very valuable, right? And those are really meaningful. And then for the low income bonus credit that stocks as well, although that is less applicable to utility scale applications, that bonus credit is only for projects that are under five megawatt in size, and the capacity available is capped in terms of certain gigawatts per year. So it’s really meant for more like community solar and residential, as opposed to utility scale applications.
Sean McMahon 13:19
All right, one other hot topic on the policy front has been tariffs. We kind of know what it’s doing on the solar side, you know, on the modules and panels, what’s that look like for the battery, energy storage side?
Suzanne Leta 13:30
Well, one thing that I always remind people, because most people don’t know, is that the 201, tariffs that are meant for imported cells and modules are very well structured with respect to the legal requirements in the law that Congress passed applicable to 201, it’s actually required that, generally speaking, that they decline over time. And they will decline, I believe those will decline in February of 2026 and they can’t actually renew them for another eight years unless the law itself changes. That’s 201 for for again, PV cells and module imports from China, 301 is totally different with 301 which applies to imported batteries, inverters, semiconductors. Just as an example from China, the president essentially has complete control over the ability to increase the tariff rates at any time. And so it’s kind of scary, right? If you’re, if you’re a project developer, because you you you think you know, based on the the current president’s decision to his proclamation earlier this year for what those 301 tariffs are going to be, and I can talk about that in a moment. But if we have a change in President, or even if the current administration’s vice president Harris wins, either president could change the 301 tariff values, really, at any time. Time, and it technically, there’s, you know, a USTR review, but it’s really not a critical review. The president can basically just kind of write down what they like, and it becomes law. So there is some risk there, with respect to 301, tariffs for those products, that it can impact Now that said, assuming there’s no change moving forward, and who knows there could be, the current president, issued a proclamation earlier this year to increase those 301 tariffs on imported batteries and battery parts that changes from a tariff rate of which is currently seven and a half percent to 25% and that takes effect January one of 2026
Sean McMahon 15:49
Okay, so it sounds like either way, perhaps there’s a tariff increase coming on the battery side. Is that what you’re telling me?
Suzanne Leta 15:57
Tthere’s certainly a tariff increase coming on the battery side, because that’s been decided by President Biden, and then just be aware that that particular tariff has the potential to be changed at any time by the next president.
Sean McMahon 16:13
We’ll be right back
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This year, KPMG canvassed hundreds of US executives across the renewable energy industry, and found that industry momentum is being fueled by three key factors, demand, innovation and incentives. Visit kpmg.com/us to explore the detailed survey results, or just click on the link in today’s show notes.
This episode was also sponsored by EDF Renewables. Leading the charge towards a cleaner, more sustainable future, EDF renewables develops constructs and operates innovative solar energy solutions. Learn more at EDF-RE.com EDF renewables is energy innovation for the next generation.
Sean McMahon
And now back to my conversation with Suzanne Leta from Fluence.
Politics is a hot topic. You’re a policy expert, what are the questions? Are folks asking you about possible change in administration, and what impact that’ll have on either the broader renewable sector or specifically to battery storage?
Suzanne Leta 17:30
Yeah, the first thing to note is that renewables are extremely popular. Battery storage is very popular by, you know, in terms of the American public and the market fundamentals are really strong regardless of who is president. The real question is, will there be any changes to some of the most critical tax credit provisions by Congress depending on the outcome of the election, and then will there be any changes to the tariffs, as I mentioned, or to the regulations implementing some of those critical tax provisions made by the next president? Those are the two big national policy topics that I get asked regularly. Let me speak to the former, and then I’ll speak to the latter. So with respect to whether or not Congress may make some amendments to some of those critical tax credit provisions, we’re not expecting to see any amendments, of course, this year, right? Because we know who Congress is, and post election, that won’t change until January 21 of next year, the real question becomes, what could Congress decide to change depending on the election outcome when they start negotiating a big tax package in 2025 so there’s a lot of work being done now to educate Congress Members, especially Republican members of Congress, where there’s strong manufacturing and project deployment in their districts in the United States, about how important those tax credits are to economic development and energy security in their districts, to their constituents. So a lot of that work is being done now. Actually, I was on the Hill earlier this week meeting with about two dozen members of Congress within three days, many of whom are Republicans. Where we have an in District presence, my colleagues are doing the same to help educate them, and I think they’re being quite receptive, which is great. And then as a compliment to that, a few weeks ago, about 18 Republican members of the House wrote a letter to the speaker emphasizing the value of these tax credits. So the momentum is building. That’s really good. The other thing to be aware of as we look into 2025 is that even if the republican party wins. And all three houses, the President as well as the Senate and the House. Most likely the Senate and the House majorities will be very slim, and so letters from those 18 Republican members of the House, for example, and other allies, Republican allies of battery storage and renewable energy will, their opinions will really matter, because there’s a lot of horse training that happens in Congress, and they will have inFluence. So that’s, that’s sort of high level, you know, the topic of what might happen with a change right to some of these tax credit provisions in 2025 or beyond, then, with respect to if there’s a change in the presidency, first, I will say if vice president Harris ends up winning the election, the track record and and Governor Walz, track record on battery storage and renewable energy is quite strong. I think we’ll probably expect a lot of consistency and more stability. And that’s what a lot of investors and the storage and renewable energy community is looking for, is consistency and stability, so that we know what the rules of the game are, and we can work with those over the long haul. We are hoping that if President Trump is elected, he will have the same perspective. We don’t know yet. I think, again, as I mentioned, the biggest questions really are if there will be changes to some of the trade and tariff policies, and if there could be any changes to the many, many rules that have been implemented so far by the Biden administration regarding the details of these various tax credits, I think those are the two big question marks with respect to if President Trump is elected.
Sean McMahon 21:51
Okay, yeah, he’s definitely thrown out some pretty high percentage numbers when it comes to tariffs, ie 100% so you know. But there’s sometimes a disconnect between what he says and what kind of actually happens, so specific to policies and things like that. So, you know, if he wins, it still might be a little bit of wait and see, so shifting a little bit to something that perhaps not everyone thinks about his policy. I mean, obviously, I mean, I know Fluence has got a huge asset performance management, you know, aspect to your business. But cybersecurity, you know, a lot of folks think about energy now as what our vulnerabilities might be, and there’s a policy role there. What can you tell us about that?
Suzanne Leta 22:30
it’s really important we want to make sure that when we are connecting really any kind of product to the grid that we’re thinking about where the components are made from an IP perspective and from a operating system software perspective, so that when we’re making our grid more secure with batteries and with renewable energy, and really any kind of energy asset That’s interconnected to the grid, that we are making the grid secure from a national security perspective as well. So we always encourage our customers, whose customers are utilities and transmission service organizations, who are very eyes wide open about this topic, to be mindful of those key parts of the product that they’re buying, because increasingly their customers, again, the utilities and the TSOs, who sometimes are our customers as well. Right? We work with IPPs and utilities and TSOs, but oftentimes it’s the IPPs customers that aren’t, maybe not asking about cybersecurity now, but will be increasingly asking about cybersecurity moving forward, we always remind them to be thinking about where, where the operating system software is developed, and how it’s developed, and where some of the most critical components are made. So at Fluence, we actually just did re plus last week, provided a cybersecurity brochure to our customers so they get a much better sense of how focused we are on this topic, to help them address these questions and concerns. And then we’ve also been educating trade associations and other external parties about how this topic needs to be a little bit more at the forefront than it has been historically. The three things that are most important are the operating system software, the hardware components that control and monitor the battery pack and the inverter at Fluence, our operating system software is developed in house in the US, Germany and India. The little chip that manages the battery pack is made by German company in Hungary. Our inverter suppliers are from the US, Spain and Germany, and that’s where they manufacture. We’ve really been thoughtful about that, in addition to a whole host of cybersecurity. Software and protocols developed by an in house cybersecurity team. So not all products are thinking about it that way. I mean, some of our some of our competitors are, but certainly not all of them, and maybe not in the same level of robustness. So we would really encourage those that are working in this space, both policymakers as well as the product purchasers to be more proactive and work work in partnership with us to address some of those challenges.
Sean McMahon 25:27
Yeah, it sounds like anything that’s not being developed in house or here in the US, you’re embracing what I guess people are calling friend, showing you know, making sure it’s built in countries and locations that you know they’re more friendly than perhaps others. Yes, I want to also ask you a little bit about data centers. We’re all reading about how AI is just booming and it’s just gobbling up, you know, the demand for more and more data centers. So what are you and the team at Fluence seeing from that?
Suzanne Leta 25:53
We think there’s really important relationships between data centers and battery storage systems in many different ways. The first thing is that battery, Energy Storage provides so many different values from an energy security perspective that data centers and those serving them also need. Number one, right? We have ancillary and capacity services. That’s the how many standalone battery energy storage systems are being developed in Texas right now, or that are already connected to the grid. Is a great example of that. Number two, it can integrate renewable energy resources. That’s why we’re seeing so many solar plus storage hybrid systems, right because it extends the availability of the power from a solar system. And I think we’re going to see more of battery plus wind systems as well moving forward. And then number three, which a lot of people don’t know, is that you can use Storage as a transmission asset. Many of our customers in Europe are TSOs, because they’re utilizing the storage systems to make their electricity grids more robust. It’s this you can use Storage similarly to other types of non wires solutions, and we should be doing much more of that in the United States than we are today. And it’s not to say that we don’t need wires based solutions. We do, but we should also be maximizing all of the available technologies that are non wire solutions, inclusive of battery storage, and how that relates to data centers and AI is several fold. First, the data centers that we have historically deployed in the United States are not hyperscale data centers. So they have a lot of power demand, and they’re certainly being they’re certainly utilizing clean, firmed power to meet that demand. But hyperscale, AI, hyperscale is a very different beast.
Sean McMahon 27:55
Let me stop you right there real quick. The term hyperscale, I’ve heard it a few times, and I’m familiar with it, but I think some of our listeners that might be new to them. So what are we talking about? We’re talking about hyperscale,
Suzanne Leta 28:04
Sure. So please note that I am not the AI expert or the hyperscale expert, but essentially, hyperscale is a data center that’s running AI as opposed to a data center that is really more for your traditional data storage, and the hyperscale AI is much more energy consumptive, and that’s the big difference. So before I talk about hyperscale and how its relationship to battery storage, I will say that already, with our typical data center development in the United States today, battery storage plays a really important role. So for example, our Fluence product was deployed at an Orsted site that just completed construction, or is very close to completing construction in Arizona. It’s the fifth largest battery energy storage system in the world. It’s a PV plus battery system, and it is primarily serving meta so we have great examples of how storage is serving data centers now, of course, in the United States and elsewhere. But hyperscale is a bit different, because it’s just even so much more power demand. And the challenge is how that demand can be met in terms of speed and scale and interconnection to the grid as clean as possible. That’s not an easy challenge to solve for especially when the assets that utilities have already invested in, the generation and transmission assets were primarily developed to serve their traditional rate base right residential rate payers and CNI ratepayers. And so there’s a lot of meaty topics that have come up related to cost allocation. Like how you serve these facilities, and how clean and how quickly can you do it, where storage can really play a role, in addition to the other things that we’ve already talked about right which storage is doing today is, I think that if we think a little bit more about how we can serve some of those hyper scales data centers behind the meter with a mix of solar storage, maybe some fossil fuels, right? We can serve those systems with power more quickly, and we can help address some of the transmission and interconnection challenges. You know, with a battery storage behind the meter, it could help, perhaps interconnect that data center faster, because you don’t rely on as much interconnection. And then, in addition to that, the storage system itself can again serve multiple purposes, including as a transmission asset. So I think there’s a very important role for battery storage in the case of AI and hyper scaling. And then separately, you know, AI is a really important tool for all of the software associated with battery energy storage systems as we continue to learn and maximize operating revenue and performance, and, of course, help the asset maximize revenue in terms of the way that it can bid into wholesale markets.
Sean McMahon 31:23
That’s always kind of funny when we talk about AI being used to manage how to power AI. And it’s a fun little like circle of thought we have to think about So looking ahead, I always ask guests on this show for their bold predictions, setting aside the piece about the election, because obviously that’s going to change some things. And a policy expert, like you, that’s probably pretty front of mind. What other bold predictions could you make that might be election proof? I guess we’ll say, or any bold predictions about what the landscape is going to look like for the battery energy storage sector in, say, two or three years?
Suzanne Leta 31:58
Well, I think the first thing is that the global battery storage market is growing incredibly fast. The front of the meter additions are on track to hit about 158 gigawatt hours annually by 2030 and that’s according to Bloomberg 2023 energy storage market outlook. And we might likely surpass that, right? I mean, most of the time, and Bloomberg is does amazing work, but if they will self admit that, when they do predictions on battery storage deployments as well as other types of clean energy deployments, regularly, those predictions are surpassed. So there’s incredible growth. That’s the first thing. I don’t know if that’s a bold prediction, but I guess my bold prediction related to that is I expect the predictions of the most of the market intelligence firms to be wrong and for that deployment to be much faster and and much larger. The second thing is that I think our leading IPPs utilities, transmission service operators, really need to be thinking more about how to manage a variety of different risks, and think about their battery storage, supply chain and software solutions much more comprehensively, and the partners they work with more comprehensively to manage those risks, whether it’s trade and tariffs or policy or product integration or services or safety. You want to be working with partners that are going to be there with you every step of the way. And really, it’s better in general, to work with an integrator that provides you a complete solution, because then you have, as our president of the Americas likes to say, John zahernic, you have one back to pat and you have to go to anybody else, and you make sure that that system is going to serve you in the way that you need to help you for the life of its availability. So I think that’s the other I don’t know if it’s as much of a bold prediction, as much as I would say, there’s not enough holistic thinking, I think right now on the part of the purchasers of battery, energy storage products, regarding that range of risks, and they should be, and I think they will be moving forward much more mindful about working with partners that can work with them over the life of the system to manage those risks together.
Sean McMahon 34:25
Okay, well, I’ll definitely keep track of both those predictions. I guess, in gambling parlance, you’re taking the over on all the projections of how much energy stores is going to be deployed. So I appreciate that. And Suzanne, listen, let’s, let’s get together again in about a year, maybe when the dust settles from the election, I guess, if it’s settled by then, and kind of see where things are shaping up on the policy front. But for now, I appreciate your time, and thank you very much for this conversation.
Suzanne Leta 34:53
Thank you. It was great speaking with you, and I certainly hope that it will be settled one way. Or another. Very much. So appreciate your time.
Sean McMahon 35:03
Well, that about wraps up our show for today, but before we get out of here, I want to say one final thank you to the sponsors of this episode, EDF Renewables and KPMG. If you like this show, please follow us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us on Twitter, where our handle is at renewables pod. And if you want to get a daily dose of renewable energy news delivered directly to your inbox, head on over to SmartBrief.com and sign up for the Renewable Energy SmartBrief.